The Four Horsemen, episode 1

[SH] This is the point I think we should return to, this notion of the arrogance of science. Because there is no discourse which enforces humility more rigorously. Scientists, in my experience, are the first people to say they don't know. I mean if you get a scientist to start talking off his area of specialisation, he immediately starts - he or she - hedging his bet, saying, you know, I'm not sure but I'm sure there's someone in the room who knows more about this than me … and, of course, so, you know, all the data's not in. This is the mode of discourse in which we are most candid about the scope of our ignorance.

[CH] Well actually a lot of academics come up with that kind of false modesty, but I do know what you mean.

[SH] Well, yeah, yes it is.

[CH] Many's the historian who says, "no, I yield …" (inaudible)

[RD] No, but any academic should do that, any …

[CH] Yes, they should.

[RD] The thing about religious people is that they recite the Nicene Creed every week, which says precisely what they believe. There are three gods, not one. The virgin Mary, Jesus died … went to the … what was it? … down for three days, and then came up again?

[CH] Yes.

[RD] In precise detail, and yet, they have the gall to accuse us of being overconfident and of not knowing what it is to doubt.

[DD] And I don't think many of them ever let themselves contemplate the question, which I think scientists ask themselves all the time: "what if I'm wrong?". "What if I'm wrong?" I mean, it's just not part of their repertoire.

[CH] Actually, would you mind if I disagree with you about that?

[DD] No.

[CH] A lot of talk that makes religious people hard to … not hard to beat, but hard to argue with, is precisely that they'll say that they're in a permanent crisis of faith. There is indeed a prayer, "Lord I believe, help thou my unbelief." Graham Greene says the great thing about being a Catholic was that it was a challenge to his unbelief. A lot of people live by keeping two sets of books. In fact, it's my impression that a majority of the people I know who call themselves believers, or people of faith, do that all the time. I wouldn't say it was schizophrenia, that would be rude. But they're quite aware of the implausibility of what they say. They don't act on it when they go to the doctor, or when they travel, or anything of this kind. But in some sense they couldn't be without it. But they're quite respectful of the idea of doubt. In fact they try and build it in when they can.

[RD] Well, that's interesting then. And so when they are reciting "the Creed", with its sort of apparent conviction, is this a kind of mantra which is forcing themselves to overcome doubt, by saying yes, I do believe, I do believe, I do believe! because really, I don't.

[CH] And of course, like their secular counterparts, they're glad other people believe it. It's an affirmation they wouldn't want other people not to be making.

[RD] Yes.

[SH] Well, also, there's this curious bootstrapping move which I tried to point out in this recent On Faith piece. This idea that you start with the premise that "belief without evidence is especially noble". I mean, this is the doctrine of faith. This is the parable of Doubting Thomas. And so you start with that, and then you add this notion which has come to me through various debates that fact that people can believe without evidence is itself a subtle form of evidence. I mean, we're kind of wired to … Actually Francis Collins, you mentioned, brings this up in this book. The fact that we have this intuition of god is itself some subtle form of evidence. And it's this kind of kindling phenomenon where once you say, "it's good to start without evidence …" the fact that you can, is a subtle form of evidence. And then, the demand for any more evidence is itself a kind of corruption of the intellect, or a temptation, or something to be guarded against. And you get a kind of perpetual motion machine of self deception, where you can get this thing up and running.

[CH] But like the idea that it can't be demonstrated, because then there'd be nothing to be faithful about.

[SH] Right, that's the point of faith.

[CH] If everyone has seen the resurrection, and if we all knew that we've been saved by it, well, then we would be living in an unalterable system of belief. And it would have to be policed, and it would actually be … those of us who don't believe in it are very glad it's not true, because we think it would be horrible, those who do believe it don't want it to be absolutely proven so there can't be any doubt about it, because then there's no wrestling with conscience, there are no dark nights of the soul.