The Four Horsemen, episode 1

[SH] Somebody … it was a review of one of our books, I don't remember which, but it was exactly that point. That just what a crass expectation on the part of atheists that there should be total evidence for this. I mean, there would be much less magic if everyone was compelled to believe by too much evidence. Actually, this is Francis Collins. I'm sorry. This is Francis Collins.

[CH] Well, a friend of mine Canon Fenton of Oxford, actually, said that if the Church validated the Holy Shroud of Turin, he personally would leave the ranks. Because if they were doing things like that, he didn't want any part of it.

[SH] Right.

[CH] I didn't expect when I started off for my book tour to be as lucky as I was. I mean, Jerry Falwell died in my first week on the road. That was amazing.

[SH] Yes, that was amazing luck!

[CH] I didn't expect Mother Teresa to come out as an atheist.

[DD] Yes.

(general laughter)

[CH] But, reading her letters, which I now have, it's rather interesting. She writes, "I can't bring myself to believe any of this". She tells all her confessors, all her superiors, "I can't hear a voice. I can't feel the presence, even in the mass, even in the sacraments". No small thing. And they write back to her saying, "that's good. That's great. You're suffering … it gives you a share in the crucifixion. It makes you part of Calvary." You can't beat an argument like that. The less you believe it, the more your demonstration of faith.

[SH] The more you prove it's true.

[CH] Yes, and the struggle, the dark night of the soul, is the proof in itself. So, we just have to realise that these really are nonoverlapping magisteria. We can't hope to argue with a mentality of this kind.

[SH] Well, no, actually, I disagree there …

[DD] No, but we can do just what you're doing now, and that is, we can say, "look at this interesting bag of tricks that've evolved" "Notice that they are circular … that they're self-sustaining … that they don't have any … that they could be about anything." And then you don't argue with them, you simply point out that these are not valid ways of thinking about anything. Because you could use the very same tricks to sustain something which was manifestly fraudulent. And in fact, what fascinates me is that a lot of the tricks are … they have their counterparts with con artists. They use the very same forms of non-argument, the very same non sequiturs, and they make, for instance, a virtue out of trust. And as soon as you start exhibiting any suspicion of the con man who is about … gets all hurt on you, plays the hurt feelings card, and reminds you how wonderful taking it on faith is. I mean, there aren't any new tricks, these tricks have evolved over thousands of years.

[CH] And you could add the production of bogus special effects as well, which was one of the things that completely convicts religion of being fraudulent, the belief in the miraculous. The same people will say well Einstein felt a spiritual force in the universe, when he said, "the whole point about it is, there are no miracles, there are no changes in the natural order. That's the miraculous thing." They're completely cynical about claiming him in almost the same breath. Every religious person feels the same criticism of other people's faith that we do, as atheists. I mean, they reject the pseudo miracles and the pseudo claims to certainty of others, and they see the confidence tricks in other people's faith, and they see it rather readily. You know, every Christian knows the Koran can't be the perfect word of the creator of the universe, and anyone who thinks it is, hasn't read it closely enough and it's just in this hermetically-sealed discourse that isn't really being self-critical. And I think we make a very strong case when we point that out, and point out also that whatever people are experiencing, in church or in prayer, no matter how positive, the fact that Buddhists and Hindus and Muslims and Christians are all experiencing it, proves that it can't be matter of the divinity of Jesus, or the unique sanctity of the Koran, or because …

[DD] 'Cause there's seventeen different ways of getting there, yeah.